Doug Groothuis is one of America’s leading Christian apologists. Author of Christian Apologetics: A Comprehensive Case for Christian Apologetics, as well as many other books and articles, Dr. Groothuis is Professor of Philosophy at Denver Seminary.
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Herb: What motivated you to become interested in apologetics?
Doug: I became a Christian after studying philosophy my first year in college. And then I went back and tried to be philosophical about Christianity and think through the Christian worldview and how it related to other worldviews. And I ended up getting a PhD in philosophy and studying other religions and other philosophies, writing about those. And I had some facility in doing that and it ministered to people. I love to build Christians up in their faith and also try to speak the truth in love to unbelievers, understand them, be able to interact logically with people that I disagree with.
Herb: Wonderful. I have a ministry that ministers to men and so a question I have for you involves the tremendous worldview change in our culture over the last several decades. How do you feel that that has affected men?
Doug: Well, the changes are profound, really titanic. And it has to do with not considering God as the ultimate moral authority. We’re concerned more about what’s contingent and what culture thinks. So laws are changed with no regard to the fear of God. And sexual ethics have gone insane in recent years. So I think men are told any sexual relationship they want is legitimate as long as it’s consensual. And that’s wrong. I think when people stop exercising dominion, as we’re called to do. We’re called to cultivate the planet–it’s true for men and women–that they often resort to the strongest feelings they have. And in many people, those are erotic feelings. So men and women need to practice self restraint, self control, and also have a worldview that makes sense out of sexuality. God created us male and female for marriage. Pretty simple. And if we stay within heterosexual, monogamous marriage and faithfulness within marriage, then we’ll have a framework for our lives and we won’t be tossed about by all these bizarre sexual ideas that assail us all the time.
Herb: When our culture had a theistic worldview, a Christian worldview, that men had a template of what they were supposed to do.
Doug: Right.
Herb: And now, with a materialistic worldview, men tend to think of themselves as just mere animals.
Doug: Well that’s right because people are trying to erase the distinction that exists between the human and the non-human. And often behaviors are justified or explained on the basis of what’s called evolutionary psychology which, as Francis Schaefer said, has a view of human beings where you look down, you don’t look up. You look down at your supposed evolutionary history. And you don’t look up in terms of your creator who made you in his image and likeness. So we lose a law above the law. We lose an orientation to God and we look only to the biological and only to the social world. And that means that we won’t have abiding standards and we won’t have reasons to say no to ourselves because we’re saying yes to God and his kingdom. And once that becomes a part of culture, anything goes. It’s like the psalmist says, “When the foundations are destroyed, what can the righteous do?” What we do is we cling to God. We read the Bible. We believe the Bible. We attend church. We try to be salt and light in the culture. But we can’t underestimate the philosophical consequences of this belief that God has nothing to say to the human condition.
Herb: Do you feel like men’s ministry in general is doing an adequate job in explaining to men how their culture is affecting them?
Doug: Well, I’m not sure about men’s ministry in particular. But I don’t think that the church is up to speed on these basic apologetic cultural issues. Or even on basic knowledge of the Bible. So we need to explain to people what Christianity is, what we ought to believe. And then how it stands against so much of what’s happened in American culture in recent decades. So we can be aware and alert and not simply be baffled by the things that are happening.
Herb: Do you see the Fall affecting men and women differently?
Doug: I’m not sure. Some years ago a writer by the name of Mary Stewart Van Leeuwen said that while men and women are equally made in God’s image, equally fallen, can be forgiven, can be used by God, that when you look at Genesis 3, it seems that the sins that beset men tend to be the sins more of power. And the sins that beset women perhaps are more manipulation through emotion or sexuality. Now that’s a generalization. That doesn’t apply to everyone because there are power mad women and there are men who are emotionally manipulative, and so on. But there may be those general tendencies. But we’re all called to worship God in Christ and to exhibit the fruit of the Spirit and avoid lusts of the flesh.
Herb: Do you sense that Christian men are more drawn toward apologetics than Christian women?
Doug: I think if you look at the notable apologists, speakers and writers, they’re almost uniformly men. I don’t think that has to be that way. I’m not exactly sure why it is. One of the brightest up and coming Christian philosophers is one of our graduates, Sarah Geis, she’s also now an adjunct professor at Denver Seminary. She’s writing and she’s in the PhD program. And she’s every bit as good an apologist as any of my male graduates.
Herb: Back on the subject of the fall. A huge emphasis in men’s ministry is pointing out that a lot of society’s issues are with men. The primary perpetrators of mass killings are men. The vast majority of prisoners are male. Most rapists are male, etc. Do you have any insight into why that might be? From a Christian worldview perspective why are cultures having such a hard time dealing with the problem of raising up men appropriately?
Doug: I think it has to do with the lack of the fear of God, a lack of seeing the biblical pattern of life, of humility, submitting to Christ for salvation, following Him as Lord, and learning to govern the passions. When you look at the Fall in Genesis three, God says he [the man] will lord over you [the woman]. That is, there will be very sinful patterns of authority set up. And men often think that simply by being men they should have authority and they have wisdom with respect to women. And that never translates into mutual love and support and encouragement. So if men by nature tend to be more aggressive, then they have to use that aggression in a godly way. Love is patient, love is kind, love is not arrogant or boastful, it doesn’t seek its own, it seeks the good of others. And that applies to men and women. I think when you have this idea that your instincts are good, your emotions are generally good, and you have to fulfill them, then if men have this general tendency to be aggressive and to dominate, then that will go wrong and that will end up with things like crime, rape, wife abuse and those kind of things. So I think it comes down ultimately to what Christ’s call is: deny yourself, take up your cross daily and follow me. That relates to everyone. But if there are certain patterns of sin that afflict men more than women, then we need to be aware of that and not ride roughshod over people, not demean women when we should be honoring women, and recognize godliness wherever it is, whether it’s in a man or a woman.
Herb: I wonder sometimes if the absence of the fear of God affects the male aggression that we have as men in such a negative way that men are more willing to perform the ultimate evil, because “this is all there is.” This is life is all there is and therefore why not?
Doug: I think so. It’s just the lack of self restraint. And then you default to your general tendencies as a man and that’s often aggression, being insensitive, wanting to get things done at the expense of listening to people, caring about people, nurturing people, and things of that nature. And we know from scripture that the fear of God is the beginning of knowledge and wisdom and wisdom from above, James tells us, is peaceable. And Jesus said, “Blessed are the peacemakers.” That doesn’t mean capitulate to evil. But men need to learn to listen, and to demonstrate the love of 1 Corinthians 13 in the power of the Holy Spirit. And that often means saying no to what we would perhaps naturally want to do. And if we really show love to other men and women, then we will put ourselves second, or third actually: God first, our neighbors second and I am third, as it’s been said.
Herb: What does the Christian world view have to offer men? What is the blessing that comes from it?
Doug: Well, truth. That’s what Christianity has to offer everyone is saving truth, and a life that can be conformed to reality, and make a difference for eternity. But whatever our weaknesses are, God knows them and God can help us address those weaknesses through the power of the Spirit and through the knowledge that He has conveyed in the Scriptures. So we should all desire to be the best versions of ourselves as possible through the power of the Holy Spirit.
Herb: When you were a young believer, did you have good role models?
Doug: I was not mentored as much as I should have been when I was a young Christian. I became a Christian when I was nineteen. My father passed away when I was eleven. So I didn’t really have a father figure. And that had an effect on me. I know that for a long time I still wanted to please my father. So I had a very strong performance orientation which I’ve had to come to terms with and realize that I’m justified by the grace of God. I don’t have earn the father’s approval. But as I’ve gotten older, I’ve seen the significance of being an older mentor to younger men, especially in the last five to ten years. We have a mentoring program at Denver Seminary that I’m often a part of. But I unofficially mentor three or four men pretty closely and then I have a circle a little removed from that of people that I try to stay in contact with, encourage and help and just hang out with. And I enjoy that tremendously.
Herb: Over the years, have you seen a change in the type of male students that are coming into seminary?
Doug: I’ve seen a general tendency with the students as a whole, which is, in many cases, inadequate knowledge of the Bible, poor study habits, and so on. I think one thing that is affecting younger men is the question, “How do I be a man?” And with the ascent of homosexuality and bisexuality, men that may have temptations in that area are more likely to give in because the culture says it’s fine. And often the church is not taking a strong and loving stand on these issues either. And we have had a few students that, once they’ve graduated, have gone into that lifestyle. And it’s very sad. I wish we could have done more to help before that happened such that it might not have happened at all. So I think there’s much more of a temptation to be effeminate, to be willing to explore things? that God has said no to. And that’s because of the culture at large, films, books, general culture. And I think part of the problem is that we’re not teaching the right perspective on gender in the church and we’re often not willing to say that anything outside of heterosexual monogamy is wrong. And if you have those tendencies and temptations, then work on that. Don’t give in to it. Don’t experiment with it. You’re playing with fire.
Herb: Well Dr. Groothuis, thank you so much. I really appreciate this time. It’s been a blessing.
Doug: You’re welcome
July 24, 2015
Littleton, Colorado