Jody Burkeen is the founder and president of MAN UP! God’s Way Ministries. This ministry was birthed out of a desire to change the way Christian men do Christianity.
Herb: Jody, great to have you here. I’ve read your book, MAN UP! Becoming a Godly Man in an Ungodly World, and it’s fabulous.
Jody: Thank you. I appreciate it.
Herb: You have an interesting testimony in your book. You describe how you grew up hating the church.
Jody: Right
Herb: And then you got married, had kids and started taking the kids to church. You found a church that you really liked, that really ministered to you. What was it about that church that drew you to the Lord?
Jody: I was literally bribed into going to church. My wife reminded me of a promise I had made fifteen years earlier on our wedding day that I would take our kids to church when they got old enough. So as we were going to the church, there was just something that was different, because it wasn’t in an actual church building. It met in a hotel conference area. So to me on the outset I was very angry because I was thinking a church had to be at least in its own brick and mortar building. So I go into the hotel and I had no expectation whatsoever. I just figured it was a cult and they were going to ask me to sell flowers at the airport and the next thing I know Id be running out the door.
But what ended up happening is that I just found people who were different than what I grew up with in the church. They put their arms around me and loved on me and just gave me the opportunity to just be myself. And as that process started, next thing I know the Holy Spirit took over and things just started clicking. Just things that the pastor was saying and, by the grace of God, I was blessed by being able to have my pastor find an interest in me. And the next thing I knew I understood what it meant to be a Christian compared with what I grew up with. And so that’s how I wound up going to church and that’s how I wound up getting saved.
Herb: So it was that personal relationship that you had with the pastor that was really critical.
Jody: It was. And that’s what I think a lot of our ministries here at Iron Sharpens Iron emphasize is that we have to utilize that personal relationship because until it becomes personal, its just a religion.
Herb: Whats the greatest step of faith you’ve had to take in your Christian life?
Jody: Wow! When I got saved, my greatest god was money. I lived for money. I was a millionaire by the time I was thirty years old. I thought that I had it all and my god liked me more than anybody else. Anybody that tried to witness to me Id always say, Well, look at what I’ve got and look at what you’ve got and look at where I’m at and look at where you are. So when I got saved, less than a year later, I lost everything. I lost it all. I’m not kidding. I didn’t lose just a little bit, I lost everything. So I went from being a millionaire to being nothing in my mind.
And so the greatest step of faith was that I got on my knees. When I got saved I thought, I’m going to get double of what Ive got. God got a good deal when He got me. And hes going to give me double of what I had – all the resources and everything. I’m going to have more money. I’m going to have a bigger house, a bigger car.”
That was my first thought when I got saved. So a year later I lost everything. I didn’t have anything. I lost my job. I lost all the rental apartments that I had. So I got down on my knees and, by the grace of God, I was in the Word. I went to God and said, I gave my life to You. Why would You take away everything that I have? I’m following you now. You should’ve taken it away when I wasn’t following you. But you took it away now.
And it was almost like He was sitting there and said, I never gave it to you. It made me think that Satan gives good gifts too. He entices you with money. He entices you with fame. He entices you with all these things. And God said just relax. The things you will get now will be greater, not financially, instead its the peace, the joy and the love and the patience.
So that step of faith was relying on God when I realized my god was money. And what I had to do was adjust my pedestal. Who did I have on my pedestal? And at the time I still had money on my pedestal. Even though I had given my heart to God, I hadn’t given my life to God. And he took that money off that pedestal and allowed it to go away. That was my greatest step of faith kind of the shock and awe of that.
Herb: What do you find most fulfilling about your life now that you’re a believer?
Jody: O man, just knowing that I’m not going to have to spend eternity in Hell. The first book I read as a Christian was Revelation.
Herb: No kidding!
Jody: I don’t know why I did that. It was that fear factor in me. I don’t think we talk about Hell enough as Christians. We want this grace and mercy. But there is judgment and there will be judgment. Also fulfilling is watching my family grow. My wife becoming a godly woman, my kids becoming godly kids. Both of them are saved now. Just knowing that were all going to heaven. I think that’s the greatest fulfillment that I have. Just that hope.
I know now what I was missing. Living in the world, you don’t realize what you’re missing. Nor do you care, until you finally feel it, see it and have that indwelling of the Holy Spirit. I hate that people cant get past their worldly ways and their selfish ways to feel that and to see that. It breaks my heart for them.
Herb: I was really impressed that in your book you were very open about pornography and how you eventually got to the point where you could talk to your wife about it. How would you, first of all, advise a Christian man who is involved with pornography and, secondly, how would you talk to him about getting to that same point that you are at with your wife where you can share your temptations with her?
Jody: On the outset, if you’re going to finally decide as a Christian man that you’ve got a porn problem, don’t automatically go and tell your wife. A woman is not mentally ready for that kind of news. I would highly suggest you find a guy you can talk to, maybe your pastor, and just say, Look, Ive got this problem. And now I need somebody to keep me accountable. That’s the first process.
And then I would say the second step is to either completely get rid of all your computers, because that’s really where the porn problem is, and/or get some accountability software, accountability blockers. I use all the above. Its been four or five years now that I haven’t had that major problem. I have the temptation. Don’t get me wrong. I mean if you’ve got a pair, you’re going to have that temptation.
So, once that process begins and there becomes the longevity of victory over the problem and it is further and further on down the road, I think your wife will probably see a change in you because porn does change you. Whether you want to believe it or not. It changes you in the bedroom. It changes your mentality. It changes the way you treat your wife. All those kinds of things. So shell probably see a change for the better in that process.
Then, after a point in time after you’ve got the problem resolved, and you’ve been going through counseling with an accountability partner and you’ve got it all squared away to the point where you’re ready to lay it on her gently say, Look, Honey, here’s what happened six months ago, five months ago, a year ago. Here’s where I was. Here’s what Ive done for it. I’m telling you in faith. I’m telling you in love. I’m telling you because I want your forgiveness.
And its not going to be an automatic, like, O, I’m so happy for you. I forgive it all and that kind of stuff. Be ready for the storm that can possibly come. It depends on the woman. I have a great wife, the first thing she said was, How can I help? That was such a blessing. But it was after that process. It wasn’t something that I just dropped on her.
Herb: Its the whole issue of trust. You have to reestablish that trust. So you have to be able to say, Ive been working on this. Ive been free of this for x number of months or years. But I want to be honest with you and tell you about my past. And I think that’s very wise. I think some guys go immediately and spill the beans and think the wife is going to go, I trust you now.
Jody: It is a huge thing. And you will have to build up trust because, even to this day, my wife will check on my computer every now and then. But that’s what she needs to do. I need that in my life. Because if she stops doing it, those little thoughts in my head may start going off again.
Herb: Well, we know pornography is a major issue with men. What other temptations and struggles do you feel are predominant among Christian men?
Jody: I would think most people would probably say this, but pride. Pride is a huge issue in men’s lives. It does a couple things. First of all, it pushes us to work like we shouldn’t work. It pushes us to strive to have things that we shouldn’t have and that makes us work even longer because we have things that we cannot afford. So you feel the financial aspect of it that causes stress and worry that we shouldn’t have. Pride also will allow us to keep sin longer than we should have. I tell guys, there are five major problem areas in a guys life: money, sex, wives, children, and work. Outside of that, there are offshoots of all those five major problem areas.
So why cant we be honest enough with each other to say I’m struggling with pornography, I’m struggling with work, I want to strangle my wife, or my kids are so unruly? Why cant we be honest like that? Pride is causing men not to grow in Christianity because a pastor or a church wont allow men to be honest and open and come to the altar and lay it all down at the foot of Jesus and say, Ive got this problem.
A lot of times in the church we don’t talk about sin. The church should be a hospital for the hurting. We’ve put this facade up in the church that you’ve got to be righteous. You’ve got to be all of those kinds of things before you come into the church. That’s a false religion that were teaching and its killing guys. It allows us build up that pride because we think, I don’t want anyone to know that Ive got a porn problem. I don’t want anyone to know that I’m working double because Ive got too much debt, or Ive got this or that or my kids wont listen to me. It derives from pride.
Herb: Are you doing men’s ministry full time or part time?
Jody: I own a company and I’m a pastor and we also have a men’s ministry. The company produces industrial painting equipment.
Herb: How did the Lord lead you to do men’s ministry?
Jody: My personality is kind of brash. I don’t do real well with women and I don’t do real well with kids as far as talking to them. But for some reason I connect with men in the way that I talk, in the way that I challenge them, in the way that they challenge me. And I just see that the core issue and the core problem of the family, the church and the community is really the Christian man. And so I started reading the Bible and saw that God used men, not that He didn’t use women by any means, don’t get me wrong, but He used men who were not always righteous, not always right, not always up to par, but He challenged them, He motivated them somehow, someway through divine intervention and they ended up becoming some of the guys that we read about today in the Bible.
So, in my brashness, it doesn’t go well. And I think guys need to hear what they’re doing different from what the Bible says they’re supposed to be doing. So God led me to talk to them in a way that they could understand. When you start talking ‘Christianese to a new Christian, they don’t have a clue what you’re talking about. But guys that I saw in the church that were lazy and complacent, what I call lukewarm, they’re the backbone of my ministry as described in Revelation 3:16, ‘Because you are neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of my mouth. It infuriates me to see a lazy guy in the church.
So I think that’s kind of what I was led to by God and I think we can fix a lot if we fix the guys through the Holy Spirit. We can fix the family if they become the spiritual head of the household. We can fix this generation of kids and change them into a godly generation if we can teach them to teach their kids. And then we can fix the church if we get godly guys who have their household in order leading the church. If we start at the top and work our way down, it starts with guys, and that’s where God led me.
Herb: What kind of advice would you give a young man who is considering going into men’s ministry?
Jody: I would find a mentor, first of all. I would say get ready for a lot of heartbreak. Men are the laziest people you’ll ever meet in your life. You’ll start a group and you’ll have fifteen guys at that group and within two weeks you’ll have two guys showing up.
So I always tell the guys who are wanting to start a ministry to stick with the guys who want your help. The other guys, just let them go. There’s nothing you can do about it until God grabs a hold of them or they finally get it. Take hold of the Timothys, the guys that want to learn, that want to take hold of it. Especially if they’re young guys going into men’s ministry, they should read First Timothy and Second Timothy forever, don’t ever put it down because those books will tell you what you should do with guys who are your seniors, guys that are younger than you and don’t back down. That’s what Paul told Timothy, don’t back down, but don’t be rude. But expect to get your heart broken with some of these guys and just move on. But learn to kind of have that water off your back mentality like a duck does. And don’t get so caught up on the guys who quit, stay with the guys who are sticking with it.
Herb: Does your current church have a men’s ministry?
Jody: We do.
Herb: Describe the men’s ministry in your church.
Jody: Our men’s ministry is probably no different than anybody else. You know, even though Ive got a book and a national men’s ministry, our men’s ministry is just like anybody else. It has its ups and downs. It has its peaks and valleys. It has its once a month pancake breakfast and anytime you offer food, guys show up big time.
What were trying to do is teach these guys to get into the Word every single day. I teach the guys who want to start a group, I stick with the guys who want to be discipled. I look at Jesus model. He took twelve guys and discipled them. He didn’t try to preach to a whole church. He didn’t try to take hundreds and thousands of guys. He took twelve guys and spent his time with them. And that’s what I tell my guys. Don’t spend so much time with the masses. Get one on one. Get two on two, whatever. Just keep it small so you can be more intimate. But we still have the same struggles. Just like anybody else.
I can always tell when a guy gets out of his Word. When he stops reading his Bible, he stops coming on Wednesday night discipleship classes, he stops coming to Church, hes not coming to the pancake breakfasts. So its not any different than anybody else men’s ministry. Its full of ups and downs and I stay on them. I try to keep them motivated. I call them ‘sissies all the time, I do! And then go to the training in righteousness. I try to do all that.
Herb: Inspect what you expect.
Jody: Exactly. And I think we’ve lost accountability. You see Jesus rebuking and reproving and teaching and training the guys that he had and he kept them accountable. You couldn’t do anything around Jesus without getting caught. We’ve lost that in a lot of men’s ministries. We try to do that. If the men would step up in the church, the senior pastor would have the easiest job in the church.
Herb: I like it that you are both in ministry and also in the work world and the guys that we minister to are just working. What are the struggles that the guys that are out there working away face? What are their daily struggles that you see?
Jody: We’ve got a corrupt world. We always have, but Im looking at the greed that we have in the world. If you’re an employee, the employers are trying to make a penny, so they’re doing things that are illegal or unethical or immoral. As a Christian man, you still have to provide for your family. Do you turn a blind eye to it? I think that’s a big struggle.
Second, with our government, its becoming more and more impossible to share your faith. If you say ‘Jesus Christ anywhere at work, you cant do that. And what that’s doing is its pushing Christian guys to look more worldly in the workforce. So I always ask the question, if people at your work were asked the question, Can you pick out a Christian here? would they pick you out? And if they cant pick you out, then you’re lukewarm. And that’s what I try to go back to, because we are supposed to be the bright and shinning light in the world.
Our work is the world, and if were not at work, are we doing what God has called us to do? Am I going to risk my judgment based on what I think man thinks of me or what God thinks of me? So I struggle with that with guys who are out in the work world looking like a chameleon in the world and then coming to church on Sunday and look like this holy roller raising his hands and praising God.
Herb: What do you feel is the greatest need in church based men’s ministry today?
Jody: I think the greatest need is a man that’s going to be willing to stand up through all the thick and thin, the glories, the defeats. We’ve got too many mens ministries popping up and dying just as fast as they pop up. This is for the long haul. This is for life. This is for the end of time. It cant just be a group. It cant just be an eight week study and stop. Its got to continue. It has to go into the discipleship model that Jesus gave us in Matthew 28:19, ‘Go to all nations. Your nation may be your next door neighbor. It may be Africa. But we’ve got to start departing on to the next generation and the generation after that. I’m scared for our kids.
Herb: Okay, that concludes our interview. Thank you once again for meeting with me, Jody.
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