Herb: Chuck, tell us about your ministry helping churches bridge intergenerational gaps.
Chuck: Herb, great to be here with you. The primary purpose of what we do is help churches develop strategies rather than a program for intergenerational ministry. I’m convinced that far too many times we try to get enough programs going and think it will develop into a strategy, when in reality if we have a good strategy we know if programs fit.
Never has our church been more divided by age, gender, and special needs than it is today. We’ve allowed our various ministries to become their own separate church. So we have a youth church, a senior’s church – not just a ministry, but a church. So what we help the leadership of the church to do is gain a common terminology.
Right now most of our churches are like the United Nations without translators. Pastors go to their conferences. Men’s leaders go to theirs. Youth go to theirs – on and on. And when they come to the table, the only common language they have is the building, the budget, and who gets the church vans in two weeks. Those are the only things they talk about. Then they go run their separate programs and just make sure their functions get put on the master calendar. That’s it. Whereas, by bringing them together, we can see the things that are happening in student ministries should be things that men’s ministry or women’s ministry should be involved in so that it’s all one integrated process.
Herb: Great. You have an interesting definition of adulthood. I’d like you to share that with us.
Chuck: Yeah, I’m not a complicated guy. When God changes the body and makes it capable of reproducing life, you have an adult. Very simple. Now, people struggle with that because they think that for young people to be adults, they have to be mature first. That certainly isn’t a requirement for any of our peers, or anybody our age, because otherwise there would be a lot of children! The reality is that we separate maturity from adulthood, so you get to be an adult no matter what. God’s going to make that happen. The choice is, are you going to be a spiritually maturing adult. That’s where the church comes in.
Herb: Right. So you define adulthood as the point when a boy or a girl goes through puberty.
Chuck: Puberty means adulthood, by the way. So puberty is the transition to adulthood.
Herb: But then, that young adult becomes mature by choosing good.
Chuck: Absolutely. Our definition of maturity comes out of Hebrews 5:14, “Although he was a son, he learned obedience from what he suffered, having been made perfect.” That word “perfect” is teleios which means “mature.” “Having been made mature, he, Christ, became the source of eternal salvation for all who would follow him.” The reality of it is we simply translate for that, you and I, and it says that, “although he was a son” like you and I are sons, ‘he learned obedience” as God wants us to learn obedience in what we have to suffer. And in doing so “he, Jesus, became mature.” Not perfect, but mature. And as he reached his destiny to become the source of eternal salvation, so too you and I will reach the destiny for which we were created. That’s Hebrews 5:8.
But then drop down to Hebrews 5:14 and it says, “Solid food is for the mature who by constant use have trained themselves” – key issue here – “to discern good from evil.” And so our definition for maturity – adulthood – is when God changes the body, makes it capable of reproducing life. Now that’s the starting point. What we’re on is the journey to maturity, which is through constant use and training in the power of the Holy Spirit, we discern good from evil, courageously act on the good and take responsibility for our decisions. That’s spiritual maturity.
Herb: The church is having a hard time retaining young adults. Why do you think that is?
Chuck: It’s because we’ve created a separate church for young adults. So when they graduate from high school, they graduate from church and they don’t go back. One of the primary problems that we’ve identified – and it’s the reason A Chosen Generation exists – is that youth don’t become adults in the church. They’re somebody’s kid or child.
So, technically, with student ministries, they don’t get to be an adult until they’re out of college. And now we’ve even separated that with a twenty-something ministry. So they haven’t been integrated into a body of believers where they see themselves as an adult. They go to Mom and Dad’s church and listen to Mom and Dad’s pastor. But their church is either their youth group or their Sunday School class so that, when they graduate, they graduate from church.
There are several different resources out there about these issues. Ken Ham wrote a book, Already Gone, showing that by junior high our young people are out of the church. They’re attending a social function with their friends. But they’re technically out of the church. Then there’s Dave Kennaman’s recent work, You Lost Me, and it’s tremendous on the twenty-somethings , saying that the church has lost them.
And what we’re finding is that we have the “Nones,” the people that change nothing for their faith. People have been quick to understand that they’re not turning their back on God, they’re turning their back on religion and the church. That’s it. But when young people walk away, they’re not walking away from God, they’re walking away from their parents’ faith and their parents’ church and that social piece. Because when you go to college you leave your childish things at home. Paul said, “When I became a man, I put my childish ways behind me.” So young adults see church as part of their childish ways because we, the church family, have not recognized them into adulthood.
Herb: You’ve been involved with men’s ministry for two decades now. What would you say are the strengths in current men’s ministry and where would you like to see it develop more?
Chuck: One of the great strengths of men’s ministry that we’re seeing is a much greater understanding of relationships to and through men as opposed to a program or conference for men. We went through a conference era – and it was good, too – Promise Keepers, starting in 1991. And we still have conferences that are excellent. But I think we are seeing the evolution of the need for relationally based men’s ministries, or ministries to men: the need for relationship, not just doing the work. So it’s now changing to who we are, not just what we do. I think that’s a huge thing.
In terms of a weakness that I see in ministry to and through men, is that men don’t see that they have an awful lot to offer. They stand back from the idea of mentoring the next generation. So a lot of times men’s ministries are meeting week after week, but if you get with them, they’re just navel gazing. They’ve been at that same place for a year. They’re still talking about their same problems. They haven’t moved on from that in a sense. And a lot of times, they’re so relational in it, they’re really just trying to manage their sin instead of trying to get through it.
So I have a friend who has an issue with alcohol and I fell into that trap by asking him how he was doing with the drinking and he responded, “I think a lot better.” And just like that it dawned on me that he really wasn’t trying to quit drinking. He was okay with being a drunk if he could keep it from hurting other people. If he could just have times that he could say, “I’m going to be in tonight. I’ll go ahead and drink. It’s not a problem.” He was okay with that.
And I think all too often we’ve created situations with men where frankly, they just want to manage their sin and not actually deal with it. And the church has become okay with that because we consider that to be growth. And who wouldn’t celebrate growth? But in that we’ve allowed them to think that it’s still okay to have it, if you’re just getting better at it. Sin isn’t to be managed. It’s to be dealt with and gotten rid of.
Herb: Where are you seeing God at work in your own ministry?
Chuck: One of the things is we’re seeing the traction of intergenerational ministry go far beyond the walls of our ministry. And what I mean by that is, I’ve had the privilege and honor to serve as an advisor on several ministries, I now serve on the board of other ministries, and my only role is not because of great looks, and I’m sure not that smart. I’m invited onto boards and advisory boards, I’m working with other ministries because they see the need for intergenerational ministry and they’re giving us a voice into that to help them shape that. So that’s a huge step for us. So in some ways, people look and they note that the ministry hasn’t grown that much. But what we’re seeing is that God has given us very significant influence into other ministries so that they see the need for intergenerational ministry.
Herb: Give us some good examples of churches that have an intergenerational emphasis.
Chuck: There are great churches with intergenerational ministry. There is a multi-site church in Hutchison, Kansas, Pastor Andy Addis. This guy absolutely rocks. He’s a very close friend and brother of mine. He’s on our board, but he came on our board after we saw what was going on with his church. He started eight years ago with a sleepy little Baptist church of 150 and a great facility. As of now, they are remodeling one of the larger buildings in Hutchison, Kansas, he has ten churches in nine cities. On any given weekend in all the churches, they’ll have 2,500 to 2,800 people. He is entirely intergenerational, meaning that their missions teams, their teaching, the group of leaders that he has are all involved. And what you see being passed from generation to generation, and how it’s affecting and empowering the older generation, is marvelous. Because now they have a role in this thing. And they see themselves as very vital in the church. So it’s not a church that’s just looking at the youth. This is a church that’s looking from cradle to grave growing spiritually strong followers of Christ.
Herb: Right. A real family atmosphere.
Church: And the things he’s doing and growing at all the sites there in his intergenerational churches, he flat out owns it. Another great example is Ross Holts at the SummitChurch in Indian Claw, Washington. Bill Frazionelli in Washington, DC, has been doing rites of passage for nine years. And the fun part is, in all of these churches, we helped them with the first year and then we never needed to go back. They just own it, they do it. Larry Biggers in Columbus, Georgia, is doing the same thing, year after year. We’ve got churches in Florida – two churches – that have done them for years and years. Jerry Sanquist in Bloomington, MN, is also doing the same thing, year after year changing their culture and environment.
Herb: Tell us about Rites of Passage.
Chuck: The Rite of Passage is a ceremonial weekend, a celebration. We view this, unlike many other ministries that do rites of passage – which by the way do great job – as helping the church do one weekend that celebrates the recognition of young people becoming young adults, starting at age 13. It goes back to that definition that when God changes the body and makes it capable of reproducing life, for boys, it’s seventh grade or age thirteen – we know that young ladies are about twelve years when we see this physical change.
This is also mental, emotional and spiritual. The biggest change is cognitive, by the way. And it often doesn’t get addressed. Young men are about a year later. So what we do is help the church understand the reason why we use it as a starting point, not a finish line. Critical in that is that they don’t have to prove themselves. It’s not a graduation. Churches say their youth are just not ready for it. I say, well here’s the deal. If you have a young person who’s getting ready to turn sixteen and they mess up and you say, fine, we’re just not having a party. Do they not turn sixteen? Or do they turn sixteen with a curse? They turn sixteen, don’t they? They just do it without your blessing.
What’s happening in our churches is we have young people becoming adults without the blessing of the church or the parents. So this culminates a ceremonial rite of passage where, in front of the entire church, the parents call their children into adulthood and recognize that so that the whole church can hear this. And they are blessed.
The church misses so much when the community doesn’t receive them as adults. That’s why a rite of passage with fathers and sons on a canoe trip is wonderful. However, the only people that actually receive them are those dads on the canoe trip. Whereas what we believe is the church, or the adult community of believers, needs to receive them. The aunts and the grandmas and the grandpas and the others, we all need to receive them and recognize them as adults. So it’s one weekend. It’s very simple. It’s low in terms of maintenance to do it. But we equip the church to do that every year from that point on with their new adults. But it’s to position them to say, okay, now you’re an adult. Now it’s time to be discipled, mentored. Someone needs to walk with them to help them grow into spiritual maturity now that they’re adults.
Herb: Chuck, thank you so much. I want to tell you how much I appreciate you, your ministry and the blessing you have been to me personally and to New Commandment Men’s Ministries. Thank you.
Chuck: You’re a hero of mine. I love what you’re doing.
Learn more about Chuck Stecker’s ministry here.
Since 2003 New Commandment Men’s Ministries has helped hundreds of churches throughout North America and around the world recruit teams of men who permanently adopt widows, single moms and fatherless children in their congregations for the purpose of donating two hours of service to them one Saturday morning each month. We accomplish this with a free training site called New Commandment Men’s Ministry Learn how to mobilize your men’s ministry to meet every pressing need in your church at newcommandment.org.
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Learn how to form teams of men for every widow, single mom
and fatherless child in your church at NewCommandment.org.
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